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Quarantined
Lost Expert
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 407
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 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| qu4d wrote: | | madrileno23 wrote: |
Qu4d, in the video you posted, Darlton specifically says that the consequence of not mimicking the flight properly, was that Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid flashed to 1977, instead of remaining in present.
Darlton DOES NOT say anything about Sun and consequence, therefore the reason that Sun DID NOT flash, has nothing to do with the consequence. |
what the hell... why dont you read what iīm writing? what about frank? ben? ilana? bram? why dont they flash? hmm? no... itīs always just sun sun sun 
call it conincidense, destiny, whatever. there is no specific reason why she didnt flash. she is not in 1977 because she is not there. strange as it sounds. |
That's why people don't like it. It's a sh*tty plot device with no sound logic behind it. It's a deus ex machina. It's pathetic, and makes no logical sense in any sort of Rules of Time Travel that the writers did (or in this case did NOT) set up. "We're randomly sending four people back in time, but not the rest." It's L-A-M-E lame lame lame. Just because you can accept crappy writing doesn't mean everyone else can.
| greengrown713 wrote: | | OMG dude. Are you retarded? For real, you need to go back to school that's ridiculous. I mean, WTF. Moron. Deductive logic my friend, look it up. |
And you're a d*ck. |
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qu4d
One of Them
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 4208
Location: LOST in Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quarantined wrote: | | qu4d wrote: | | madrileno23 wrote: |
Qu4d, in the video you posted, Darlton specifically says that the consequence of not mimicking the flight properly, was that Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid flashed to 1977, instead of remaining in present.
Darlton DOES NOT say anything about Sun and consequence, therefore the reason that Sun DID NOT flash, has nothing to do with the consequence. |
what the hell... why dont you read what iīm writing? what about frank? ben? ilana? bram? why dont they flash? hmm? no... itīs always just sun sun sun
call it conincidense, destiny, whatever. there is no specific reason why she didnt flash. she is not in 1977 because she is not there. strange as it sounds. |
That's why people don't like it. It's a sh*tty plot device with no sound logic behind it. It's a deus ex machina. It's pathetic, and makes no logical sense in any sort of Rules of Time Travel that the writers did (or in this case did NOT) set up. "We're randomly sending four people back in time, but not the rest." It's L-A-M-E lame lame lame. Just because you can accept crappy writing doesn't mean everyone else can. |
but thats the point. why doesnt anybody care why juliet flashes together with sawyer, miles & co.?
there are many quiet a few answers i dont like either. but it doesnt help anybody to make up answers, which arent canon. you can try to make a connection with widmore, frogurt, whatever. wont help.
might be lame. of course. and i have no problem with them being blamed by you. thats your opinion. but they gave an answer.
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THE MISSING TOE
I pressed the button
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Homeless-someone burned down my Cabin
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: |
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so Jacob is a 400 foot tall pillar of flame?
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qu4d
One of Them
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 4208
Location: LOST in Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| THE MISSING TOE wrote: | | so Jacob is a 400 foot tall pillar of flame? |
no? they joked about him being 60 feet tall. if youre trying to be funny, do it right 
and theres a huge difference between joking and giving answers. they do both a lot. and if you cant read between the lines and differ, thats not my problem
they said this on tv, public for everyone to clarify this. no joking at all.
i honestly dont get it. eloise said there will be consequences. and there were some. did you expect jack to be flashed 30 years into the past? maybe. but at least jack didnt expect such a thing. you guys behave like this would be as usual as breathing. of course... when you board a plane, you do timetravel.
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greengrown713
I pressed the button
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And you're a d*ck. |
Good. I am trying to be. You guys are so effing mind numbingly stupid here. Let me make an analogy:
The aliens took Mark, Mark left b/c the aliens took him. Dan did not go anywhere. We have absolutely no idea why Dan didn't go anywhere....none at all...by all accounts he should have gone w/ Mark to the aliens b/c he was Dan and Dan was somehow related to Mark (but in a way that had nothing to do with teh aliens act of taking).
^^^WTF^^^ The aliens tooks Mark, that's why he went. Thus, them NOT taking Dan is why Dan didn't go. This is like, IDK, not even logic, it's VERY basic thinking going on here.
And yes, I get that your saying that you just don't like it and consider it Deus Ex (which btw IT IS NOT, you don't know what Deus Ex is either), but the fact is people in this thread (particularly the post I directed by purposefully dickish response at) are not sitting there arguing that they don't like it....they are saying that there is literally no reason to assume there is a realationship between Sun not going and those who went going....
It's like talking to a troll, only I truly believe that these people are not trolls. I don't actually think they are as stupid as they are sounding, but they are WAY out on a limb with the points they are making and should be called out in a rude manner for it by the time this thread reaches 4 pages.
It's ridiculous, plain and simple. I'll post however I want in response to such frustratingly ridiculous arguments, b/c the bottom line is if it deters people from posting them without thinking first, it'll make this board a better place. |
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madrileno23
Lost is my Life
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 667
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| greengrown713 wrote: | | Quote: | | And you're a d*ck. |
Good. I am trying to be. You guys are so effing mind numbingly stupid here. Let me make an analogy:
The aliens took Mark, Mark left b/c the aliens took him. Dan did not go anywhere. We have absolutely no idea why Dan didn't go anywhere....none at all...by all accounts he should have gone w/ Mark to the aliens b/c he was Dan and Dan was somehow related to Mark (but in a way that had nothing to do with teh aliens act of taking).
^^^WTF^^^ The aliens tooks Mark, that's why he went. Thus, them NOT taking Dan is why Dan didn't go. This is like, IDK, not even logic, it's VERY basic thinking going on here.
And yes, I get that your saying that you just don't like it and consider it Deus Ex (which btw IT IS NOT, you don't know what Deus Ex is either), but the fact is people in this thread (particularly the post I directed by purposefully dickish response at) are not sitting there arguing that they don't like it....they are saying that there is literally no reason to assume there is a realationship between Sun not going and those who went going....
It's like talking to a troll, only I truly believe that these people are not trolls. I don't actually think they are as stupid as they are sounding, but they are WAY out on a limb with the points they are making and should be called out in a rude manner for it by the time this thread reaches 4 pages.
It's ridiculous, plain and simple. I'll post however I want in response to such frustratingly ridiculous arguments, b/c the bottom line is if it deters people from posting them without thinking first, it'll make this board a better place. |
Ok.
1) I agree with qu4d and you that consequences of not recreating the flight properly is the reason that Jacke Kate Hurley and Sayid did flash. This was stated by Darlton and so I have no way of changing this.
2) Now that we have determined that the consequences have caused some of the passengers to flash, we have to determine if those who did flash due to consequences, were randomly selected or pre-determined.
Darlton did not say whether it was random or determined, so we can't turn to them for an answer. What we can think of is two possibilities:
Possibility A- In order to remain consistent with space-time, it was a determined selection that Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid had to be the ones who flashed, and all others had to NOT flash, in order to keep timespace consistent with those who were in 1977 and those who weren't.
Possibility B - There is a selecting agent, which I spoke of in my previous topic of this nature, as being Jacob who touched them, and how Sawyer and Locke were touched and TT to 1974, and how Sun was the only one who was touched but did not TT.
Possibility A means that they HAD TO FAIL to recreate the flight, so that there would be consequences and these specific people would flash to 77. This is the destiny, predetermined route. The recreating had to fail, the consequences had to happen, because it is the only way to keep timespace consistent.
Possibility B means that there is a selecting agent responsible for choosing these people to flash to 77, and that it/he/she is responsible for the consequences, and possibly had a hand in not creating the flight properly.
Qu4d, you are absolutely right about the consequences being the answer to why these 4 did flash, but Darlton stopped short, they gave us half the answer, they didn't explain why those who did not flash, did not flash.
This is answered by the consistency of timespace.
Now, I don't understand why you are upset with people sharing my opinion or wondering about this topic, even though we admit that the video you posted proves consequences are part of the answer, they may not be the entire answer. Darlton have said many times that they will try to answer as much as possible about LOST universe by the end of the show, but they will not be able to answer every single question thoroughly and fully. They have said this is intentional, as they want the fans to think about LOST and formulate their own opinions and answers about questions that are not directly or thoroughly addressed.
If you need to stop at "consequences" because that is FOR YOU, the best answer to sum up all of these questions in this post, than that is great. I am happy that you are content with that answer and feel that is addresses all parts of this question. However, I feel disappointed with that answer, and feel there is more to discuss. I am not disregarding consequences, I am taking that answer and expanding it, trying to grow and learn more from that point about this topic. Why? Because I want to be content with an answer, just like you. |
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eruptus
I pressed the button
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1216
Location: Foot
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| madrileno23 wrote: | ...Darlton stopped short, they gave us half the answer, they didn't explain why those who did not flash, did not flash.
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They didn't flash because most of the flight was recreated properly. I don't see what the problem is here...
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qu4d
One of Them
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
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Location: LOST in Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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of course they had to flash to be consistent. otherwise it would be paradox. yes, they had to fail. they caused them being there by theirselves. thats the funny thing about it.
btw you should watch the audio commentary of episode 5x01. damon and carlton talk a bit about the stuff. what the island wants and causes and stuff. itīs great
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intp
Lost Aficionado
Joined: 04 Sep 2009
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| greengrown713 wrote: |
Good. I am trying to be. ... , it'll make this board a better place. |
edited, but I think it's one of the points you're making.
You're willfully breaking forum rules for 'the greater good'? You can't stand that someone disagrees with you in regards to what is and isn't important so much so that you took a thread and inflated it to get this point accross?
Isn't a simple "I disagree" enough to just let it go?
| eruptus wrote: | | They didn't flash because most of the flight was recreated properly. I don't see what the problem is here... |
The problem is a question became a debate became an argument. The reason why I (and I think others) are still mulling this over and looking deeper is that it's not answered to my (our) satisfaction. For those of you who are patently disinterested, I don't see what the fuss is about... there's several threads I ignore when I come to the boards for various reasons, some because I think are just dumb to ponder, but I respect those who do find it worthwhile by staying out of it. If we were to take gg's example to heart, hundreds of thousands of posts would simply be 'you are wrong and ignorant to think differently'... well, more than there is already.
LOST fans are obssessive. The show trains us to be so. All those questions that won't be answered by next season are going to be bandied about forever. It's just how it is. Unless you can provide definitive proof that something is how it is (and even then in some cases), people are going to discuss what they want to discuss. |
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terrig66
Lost Expert
Joined: 30 Jan 2009
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty_hunter12 wrote: |
The other reason is one that I think Darlton mentioned which was the unexpected consequences of not recreating the 815 flight correctly, pretty lame if thats the case imo. |
THIS!!! Its been confirmed as the reason. |
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madrileno23
Lost is my Life
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 667
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| eruptus wrote: | | madrileno23 wrote: | ...Darlton stopped short, they gave us half the answer, they didn't explain why those who did not flash, did not flash.
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They didn't flash because most of the flight was recreated properly. I don't see what the problem is here... |
The exact problem is:
If it was random selection of who flashed and who remained, it is highly improbable statistically that the exact four who needed to flash in order to keep spacetime consistent, were the four who were randomly selected to flash.
If it was pre-determined, than in addition to consequences explaining why these four did flash, an added explanation for those who were not chosen and determined (by who or what, i dunno) is needed, and that explanation is spacetime consistency.
Why did Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid flash? A: Consequences.
Why did Sun and other not flash? A: They were never in 1977, has to remain consistent. |
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LostFan324
Lost Junkie
Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| madrileno23 wrote: | | eruptus wrote: | | madrileno23 wrote: | ...Darlton stopped short, they gave us half the answer, they didn't explain why those who did not flash, did not flash.
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They didn't flash because most of the flight was recreated properly. I don't see what the problem is here... |
The exact problem is:
If it was random selection of who flashed and who remained, it is highly improbable statistically that the exact four who needed to flash in order to keep spacetime consistent, were the four who were randomly selected to flash.
If it was pre-determined, than in addition to consequences explaining why these four did flash, an added explanation for those who were not chosen and determined (by who or what, i dunno) is needed, and that explanation is spacetime consistency.
Why did Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid flash? A: Consequences.
Why did Sun and other not flash? A: They were never in 1977, has to remain consistent. |
This kinda makes me think... Eloise said there would be consequences, it's been confirmed thats why some flashed to 77' and some didn't by that video...
maybe part of the consequences was that they were ALL supposed to flash to 77' but the consequences were that only some did... maybe they went to the past wrong and if they had all gone, the picture would of included Sun, Lapidus, etc.
Something to ponder...
I edited this to make sense... 
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greengrown713
I pressed the button
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 1089
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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INTP:
| Quote: | edited, but I think it's one of the points you're making.
You're willfully breaking forum rules for 'the greater good'? You can't stand that someone disagrees with you in regards to what is and isn't important so much so that you took a thread and inflated it to get this point accross?
Isn't a simple "I disagree" enough to just let it go? |
No, you didn't read AGAIN!!!! It isn't a disagreement. This is an absurdity.
Note: you may not realize that my entire tirade was directed at the idea that why Sun didn't go, was in no way related to why the others did.
Other than that, (as in the discussion in here as a whole), I can fully accept peoples disagreements. What I cannot and will not accept is topics (which btw, I actually like reading and participating in) being hijacked for 100 pages debating things that aren't debatable...or things that belong in a doctorate level philosophy class and have no application to the current discussion (as in applying it to Darlton's commentary). In other words, when you sit there (btw, I don't even remember who actually set me off) and say there is no relation, then you will at some point start to piss me and everyone else (eventually) off. Oh well.
As for willfully disregarding forum rules, go cry in the corner, you're now digressing into an area that no one wants to go. A little rash? Yes. Completely unacceptable given the context and the fact that I rarely go off like that and never do so simply to do so? No.
Back on topic:
| Quote: | | Possibility A- In order to remain consistent with space-time, it was a determined selection that Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid had to be the ones who flashed, and all others had to NOT flash, in order to keep timespace consistent with those who were in 1977 and those who weren't. |
This is not a wrong statement, but it is not really correct either. A better way to say it would be emphasizing the point that JKHS, all flashed as a result of the unpredictable consequences not recreating the flash. And then you can follow up that time-space is consistent with them in the past and flashing...
....the idea is that you should not overlook the fact that it wasn't just a causal loop with them flashing b/c they're in the past and vice versa....there is a cause there and it's the recreation...now obviously a strict WHHinst will continue on to infinity about what causes what and how it's all a moot point and related, but to extend this argument to the point of nullifying recreation story arch that WE WERE GIVEN (and btw I hated it, worst thing they've done yet), is self-defeating and losing perspective on what we are trying to accomplish wiht this discussion.
| Quote: | | Possibility B - There is a selecting agent, which I spoke of in my previous topic of this nature, as being Jacob who touched them, and how Sawyer and Locke were touched and TT to 1974, and how Sun was the only one who was touched but did not TT. |
The idea that things are as they are do to Jacob/MIB/Island/fill-in-the-blank is ALWAYS on the table. There is literally no effort in this thread so far to truly craft a theory grounded in show facts....
| Quote: |
Qu4d, you are absolutely right about the consequences being the answer to why these 4 did flash, but Darlton stopped short, they gave us half the answer, they didn't explain why those who did not flash, did not flash.
This is answered by the consistency of timespace. |
No, the consistency of timespace isn't actually an answer to anything here. You must talk about the utter trash that was the pendulum scene and Hawking's info dump.
| Quote: | | They didn't flash because most of the flight was recreated properly. I don't see what the problem is here... |
eruptus, consider yourself sane then. Could they add to this by saying Jacob or someone arranged it that way? Yes. Would it change anything? No. Is it answered? Yes.
| Quote: | | If it was random selection of who flashed and who remained, it is highly improbable statistically that the exact four who needed to flash in order to keep spacetime consistent, were the four who were randomly selected to flash. |
Just as likely as any other statistic isn't it? Also, why are people forgetting that if the rule is that space-time must be consistent (which btw it may not be) then it fullfills itself? It's not like "this needed to happen to keep it consistent"....it's "this happened." I know it's basically the same thing but it's important to not delve to much into the whole "things are happening to keep everything consistent" b/c they only have to keep it consistent b/c of itself int he first place. Hence, it's not an answer to a question like this within the show, it's an answer for things we figure out from the outside looking in when we have missing pieces and we need to use process of elimination to figure it out....
| Quote: | Why did Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid flash? A: Consequences.
Why did Sun and other not flash? A: They were never in 1977, has to remain consistent. |
Why did Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid flash? A: Flight recreation messed up creating "unpredictable" results.
Why did Sun and others not flash? A: Not affected by the unpredictable results.
It really is that simple.
An LSAT prep course, while a waste of money for even most who want to take that test, would probably be money well worth it for some people on this board. |
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jam6i
Lost is my Life
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 813
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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I just read this thread for the first time. Boy, arguments sure can get heated on here.
Anyway. I think that Sun didn't flash to 1977 because maybe MIB somehow needed her. Remember when he told her at the abandoned Dharmaville that she "has work to do"? We just haven't seen what she was meant to do yet.
If the theory of time loop is in fact correct, then it may be safe to assume that Jack, Hurley, Sayid, and Kate ALWAYS flashed to 1977. That's just how it was and is. Sun ALWAYS stayed back (or ahead?) in 2007.
Long story short, I am not quite ready to wrap my brain around all this one final time.
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qu4d
One of Them
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 4208
Location: LOST in Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| jam6i wrote: | Anyway. I think that Sun didn't flash to 1977 because maybe MIB somehow needed her. Remember when he told her at the abandoned Dharmaville that she "has work to do"? We just haven't seen what she was meant to do yet.
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dude... this is speculation at its best
and christian shephard told her, that she still has a away ahead of her
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